I have been reading the thread about chores, and this is mostly how
I do things too. (My oldest is four.) But I have one concern that
I’m hoping you guys can clarify for me:

If you regularly clean up their room and toys, etc, as a “gift” to
them, don’t they grow up thinking that picking up is not their
problem or responsibility, that some one is always going to come
along and do it for them?

Wouldn’t that lead to going to other people’s houses, say, for
dinner, and just walking away when they’re done eating because, hey,
putting away dishes and helping clear tables isn’t something *I* do -
- other people are supposed to do it for me? Or wouldn’t it make
them have no qualms about littering, because, hey, at home, I make
all kinds of messes and no one complains or expects me to clean it
up? Wouldn’t it lead to think of your parents as your personal
servants and to treat them with a sort of “I snap my fingers and you
jump” kind of attitude?

Obviously the answer to this is not “Yes,” but if someone would
explain WHY it doesn’t work that way, (because to me it seems like
it would), I would appreciate it.

***

It is amazing isn’t it? It seems so counter-intuitive because it is so the
opposite of conventional parenting and cultural expectations.

I think it is simply because children live up to what is modeled for them
and how they are treated. What is being modeled (by the cleaning gifts and
presumably parental courteous behavior when dining at friends’ homes) are
the Principles of Kindness, Giving and Consideration for Others, instead of
the idea of “Every one *has to* take of themselves because no-one will help
you” or “You are a bad person if you don’t do things for others, but no-one
will do things for you”.

The children have the experience of Generosity, and end up wanting to give
to others freely. They are not carrying resentments from being forced, or
judged negatively or the feeling like they are held to a higher standard
than the adults in their lives. They are not waiting for the moment that
they are out from under anyone’s thumb to behave as they would wish to. They
are not acting from a wellspring of installed guilt.

***

I have to say that I wonder the same thing, about how children might begin
to EXPECT that everyone is there to wait on them, and also may not be
gracious with their manners when they are at someone else’s house.
We have a little friend who is EXACTLY this way. Mama does everything for
him, and he comes over and leaves some pretty significant messes and seems
quite unappreciative, almost rude sometimes.
So, this freaks me out thinking “i don’t want my children to be this way”.
I want to believe in what Robyn spoke of, that children will live what is
being modeled to them, but when I see proof in the opposite, that concerns
me.
So. . .? Any insight here?

***

One day when we first started to unschool, I was weeding in the garden. Cameron
came
out and asked whether I wanted him to help. I said that I wanted him to help IF
he wanted to help. If he
didn’t want to help, it wasn’t the kind of help I wanted.

He was there with me because none of his friends could play just then—they
were grounded or doing chores.
He asked why *he* didn’t have chores. I said that I expected him to help because
he *wanted* to, not because
I could make him. I wanted him to help when he felt ready to. *I* didn’t do
things out of martyrdom or
because I felt I *had* to. I did things because I CHOSE to. As soon as he’d
CHOOSE to help, I’d be MORE
than willing to accpet his help.

It took a couple of years. <g>

But he’s SUCH a help now! And joyfully!

What matters is that they see *you* CHOOSING to do things around the house and
*for* them with joy and
because you want to, because you choose to.

I’m guessing that child’s mom doesn’t do things so much out of love as out of
guilt/responsibility/*have*to.
That she’s unappreciative of him and rude to him about the messes he makes.
That makes a BIG difference!

***

Are they Unschoolers?

I’m not being facetious in asking. It really does make a difference because
Unschooling permeates every part of the relationships between parent and
child.

How does his mother speak to him? What is their relationship like? Is she
joyful or a martyr about it?

Do your children behave that way when they visit other people’s homes? (Jayn
is much more polite to other people than to me sometimes.)

***

> Are they Unschoolers?

Yep, they are.

> I’m not being facetious in asking. It really does make a difference because
> Unschooling permeates every part of the relationships between parent and
> child.

I agree. This particular child, though, seems to do an awful lot of taking
and very little giving. And with plenty of attitude.

> How does his mother speak to him? What is their relationship like? Is she
> joyful or a martyr about it?

She stays joyful, as far as I can tell. I can only comment on how I
*perceive* their relationship to be, but to me, it feels like he runs all
over her. If I spend too much time with them, my energy is very out of
whack. I can feel it physically.

> Do your children behave that way when they visit other people’s homes? (Jayn
> is much more polite to other people than to me sometimes.)

Great point!! No, my children tend to behave very well at others homes.
Aside from the occasional wanting to jump on the furniture/bed or whatever
that we do at our home, but usually a friendly reminder is enough. This
last question of yours clarifies things for me. I guess I’m worrying about
a ‘non-issue’ at this point.

Does anyone else have an experience similar to this? If so, how do/did you
handle it? Do I ‘go there’ with the mother? Leave it be? Limit our time
together?
A sticky situation, however, is that my 6yo son wants to hang out with him.
And when they spend time together, both of my children usually end up
getting very frustrated, the 6yo usually teary, and the 4yo takes on many of
said child’s little mannerisms. What to do, what do do?

I am seeing the theme of clean the room as a gift to the child. As a young
person, I made a decision to help my children by not doing too much for them.
My mother (God rest her soul) was a great mother. She washed our clothes,
folded, them, ironed them, she always did so much for us. I never remember
feeling gratitude because I thought that that was what mothers did because she
always did so much for us. Once I got out on my own and realized what I had to
do for myself was what my mother always did for a family of 5, I felt grateful
and wondered why Mama never insisted that we do more for ourselves as we got
older. My sons are 2 and 5 yrs, respectively. I have tried the clean up your
room command, I have helped him clean his room and I will clean the room when I
can’t stand it, because they don’t complain about the messiness. But, at some
point, I want my children to value having the ability to clean and to actually
self-initiate cleaning. Partly because of my experience as a child, but also
because since having children, I have been disappointed that my husband does not
feel moved to do more around the house considering that I have always done so
much for the children. Also, I see how my father-in-law is and I don’t want
sons who think that house work is beneath them. I want them to understand that
it is okay for men to clean because I want to them to do a better job of taking
care of their wives when they get married and subsequently have children since
that is something that is lacking in this culture. And let me end with saying
that I know that I am totally operating from my stuff, but laziness in men
cleaning around the house seems to be pervasive. I have not fully understood if
it is nurture versus nature. If nurturing can help, then I want sons who are at
least open to doing housework. At the very least I explain to my sons that I
value a neat home so there are times when that is exactly what I am going to do
in that moment. That way they at least have the example of a person who values
picking up around the house every now and again. And while I am on a roll, I
also feel that I have had to evolve into a person who knows how to clean. Being
a child who went to school and whose parents valued education, I feel that I was
not taught the value in cleaning your home although as a child I remembered
noting that my mother valued a clean home. My parents emphasized academics and
my personal interests outside the home. But, as I have evolved spiritually
throughout the years, I feel that my value in a clean home has more to do with
the gratitude that I have for my home.

***

<<<<< She washed our clothes, folded, them, ironed them, she always did so
much for us. I never remember feeling gratitude because I thought that that
was what mothers did because she always did so much for us. Once I got out
on my own and realized what I had to do for myself was what my mother always
did for a family of 5, I felt grateful and wondered why Mama never insisted
that we do more for ourselves as we got older. >>>>>

Well here is the logic of NOT insisting on your children cleaning working
perfectly.

You were given the gifts of a clean room and no expectations by your mother,
and NOW as an adult you *do* know how to clean; you *are* a tidy person who
takes responsibility for your home and enjoys doing so; you do now have
gratitude towards your mother. (I hope you had the chance to express it to
her before her demise.)

Perhaps the gratitude and the willingness to involve yourself in home
keeping would have come earlier in your youth if outside-the-home
activities, including school, had not been made the primary priorities - if
you were more present during the day to see it happening - but we can never
know.

I think it is wonderful that you get to be grateful to a mother who did all
of that without imbuing it with martyrdom and putting the sense of her
sacrifice on to you. Her home and giving to her children may truly have been
where she found her greatest joy.

About men - that continues to be a mystery to me. I know there are men who
are really willing about house stuff, but if they are like James, they still
wait to be asked, and have the mindset that they are “helping their wife”
with what is essentially her responsibility.

I have to say that I have surrendered to that concept, after feeling prickly
for many years. After all he willingly shoulders the income burden. Things
may change one day.

But the other side of it is, he doesn’t get to complain too much if it isn’t
exactly how he would like it done! And the cupboards are organized to my
specifications, not his.

***

I don’t think kids will learn “everyone is my servant” if parents do
things like pick up after them from a spirit of generosity. Here’s
how I think it might not turn into that kind of mindset:

1. Around the house, kids will see helping going in all directions. I
say to my partner, “David, it would really help me if you had a
minute to unload the dishwasher,” and David says, “Oh, OK, I can do
that right after dinner.” Or I say, “Let’s get Daddy a special flavor
of ice cream. Won’t that be a nice surprise for him?” and let my 4 yo
participate in choosing the flavor and springing the surprise. It’s
not a one-way street with all help and support going towards the
kids; it’s going in all directions and kids can jump in at will.

2. We also model respect for others when we are out and about. I have
a friend who loves to have kids visit, but doesn’t like being left to
do all the picking up, so one of her rules is that kids who visit
help put toys away before they leave. We enjoy visiting this friend,
and my son helps pick up before we leave (so do I, although that’s
one place where my friend and I differ–she wants the kids to do it
themselves, I like to work together). Whatever picking up he does, I
affirm, even if it’s only 3 things to my 30 things. He’s only 4, but
he knows perfectly well that there are all kinds of things we do at
our house, like jumping on the furniture, eating on the couch, and so
on, that most people don’t allow in their homes.

3. We find other opportunities to help out. Just today, we stopped at
McDonald’s for lunch. My toddler noticed a cup that had fallen on the
ground near our car (”uh-oh! Cup!”). My 4 yo said, “Carl is right.
There’s a cup right there!” I said, “Someone must have dropped it. It
would be a helpful thing for us to pick it up and put it in the
trash.” I thought I would pick it up, but Eric said, “OK!” and picked
it up, carried it into the restaurant, and put it in the trash.

This also models the idea that a person is NOT solely responsible for
her own things and her own messes. That’s one of the lies we tell
kids: you made the mess, you clean it up. In real life, my friends
and I help each other clean up our messes all the time. Just ten days
ago, I discovered a mis-calculation in my finances (I had failed to
enter a purchase in my checkbook) and my friend Scott gave me the
money to cover the shortage until next payday so nothing bounced.
Eric probably didn’t know all the ins and outs, but he saw Scott
handing me money and heard me say, “Thanks, Scott, that’s a big
help.” I figure stuff like that sinks in.

***

My mother did that too. She had been forced to do chores as a child
and decided she wouldn’t do that to her kids.

So we didn’t have any chores growing up Then when we were teens
she’d get periodically mad and resentful that we didn’t start
helping. And that confused me because she’d been doing it all on her
own for all those years and then now needed help? It didn’t make
sense. **

I think the problem was that she didn’t invite us to help. She
created a dividing line between her/adult world and my and my sisters
kid world. Her world was the household and ours was playing. It was,
in many ways, a great childhood because our job was to play and watch
TV and read and explore freely. Despite the fact that I went to
school I learned tons of stuff on my own (which helped me get
unschooling

But I didn’t really know my mom despite the fact that she was a stay
at home mom.

My daughter knows me a lot better And we’re very much a part of
each other’s worlds.

** (Even now when people are doing things I assume they’re doing them
because they want to and I have to stop and consciously think to
thank them. I think it *is* natural to assume — especially for
children to assume — that when adults are doing something, they’re
doing it because they want to. And they *should* be! So when
you’re doing something, no matter how mad it’s making you, no matter
how irritating it is, it’s going to be confusing to your kids because
they *know* no one’s making you. So they know if you’re doing
something it’s because you’re choosing to!

***

My sister and I ‘had’ to clean and cook at a young age. My mom was a single
working mom and it was just the way it was. I hate to clean and am not the
greatest housekeeper. My sister loves to clean (it’s really fun for her) and
does it well. My kids are not “required” to clean, or cook, or do laundry.
Btu they all do their own laundry, they all know how to cook, they all can
clean just fine. Sometimes they clean up if it is messy and they have time,
or if they have company coming over. Almost always they will help if I need
help and ask. And at long last, they (usually) pick up after themselves and
their guests. But that is after years of me helping them do that as
children. Laundry they do because it is a help to me, but I will gladly
help them if they need or want something clean and don’t have time to do
laundry. I think some of it is just personality. My daughter, Lisa, likes
things neat and tidy and will do lots to keep it that way. Though this does
not come naturally to me, I have tried to be better about it lately as it
matters to her. My oldest hates to clean the kitchen, but will gladly do
errands or extra laundry. My youngest used to love to clean bathrooms, he
would beg to do it. I would sprinkle in the cleaning stuff and let him go at
it. I would need to go in with a big towel and wipe the room down, but it
was clean and he loved doing it. He will still clean bathrooms and he’s not
quite as wet when he is done anymore.

When it comes to messy rooms, even before embracing unschooling I never made
the kids clean their rooms. I would work with them when they wanted it clean
or surprise them. Lisa’s room was usually clean, Kate’s was the proverbial 2
feet deep room. Fast forward to now and both keep their rooms spotless.
Much cleaner than mine. They didn’t need me to make them do it all their
lives to want a clean room and have the ability to keep it that way. In
fact, they keep their rooms much cleaner than most of their friends who were
forced to clean their rooms all those years.

As far as the expectation of having things done for them, that is all about
modeling. Being ‘made’ to do chores and such will not create a grateful,
responsible child. Nor will it create a child that desires orderliness.
This comes by a child seeing a parent joyfully and freely giving to and
doing for others, including their children. It comes from seeing parents
helping each other out. It comes from kids being a part of their parent’s
world. And I’m convinced that some of it is just genetics!

“Anyways, I suggested that a child who needed structure would
probably
provide it him or herself - with the parent’s assistance perhaps”

What those people are failing to understand, is a need for structure
has NOTHING to do with schooling. Yes, some children need
structure. All of the children I know that really, truly NEED what
some people call “structure” is knowledge of what is to come.

They like predictability, they like the “structure” of plans and
it’s the parent’s job to help them achieve that in the ways that
child needs.
For many parents, it’s just an excuse to exert control…that’s why
I dis-like the term structure, even though it simply means a form,
an outline or frame upon which to build.

Unschooling can work just fine with a child that needs structure.
Why would structure equal SCHOOL though? That’s what makes me think
the parent never got the school out of their own head.

***

*I* need structure, and I’ve been out of school for decades!

I’m a lister—I have daily lists of all kinds of things that I want to get done
by whenever.

I have deadlines: small ones, like get into a hive before it gets too cold or
bring the Christmas decorations in so I can get busy with that—and big ones,
like signing hotel contracts and sending out speaker contracts.

I have groom clients coming in every few days, so I’m working around other
people’s schedules too.—Not to mention those of my sons and husband!

I have food structures throughout the day and week: what to buy, when to fix it.

I’m redecorating my bedroom—paint/linens/design—all needs to be in place
before I empty the room. That way I can get it done in two days! <g>

I have critters to feed and laundry to wash and fold and plants to water.

Artist Trading Cards (due Jan 8th): designing and making and shipping.

I have travel arrangements to plan (Ryan, our guide dog, goes back to achool on
Monday). Car goes in this morning for service.

Without some kind of schedule/structure in my head or on paper, many of these
things just wouldn’t get done. But to think that I learned that in school is
ridiculous!

In school, my days were sructured FOR me. I didn’t have to think at all while
there. I DID learn how to structure/schedule my day AFTER school so that I could
squeeze in everything I needed/wanted to get done. But that had nothing to do
with outside-imposed/managed structure.

Well, except that I had *less* time to get done what *I* wanted/needed to do!
<g>

We each decide how much structure we need in order to do what we want to. My
high need for structure probably enables me to do more than my friends who
don’t. But that’s ME! It’s not something that can be imposed on another with
good results—just like learning!

If I were to tell my children what to do and when, they could do that. But
watching *me* juggle several balls at one time and still take them where they
need to go or play Scene-It with them or bake cookies too—THAT’s how they will
learn to schedule their time and find the structure *they* need.

Modelling the structure YOU need will enable them to develop the structure
*they* need to do what all they want to. Most of us have an innate need for more
or less structure—and I think it develops over time as we figure it all out.
Forcing structure on others won’t get them to “do it our way.” And it won’t
result in structured adults—but instead, those who look for structure from
others.

***

This conversation has led me to a belief I had about unschoolers — I
thought to be a successful unschooler that one would have to have a very
spontaneous and loose personality. For folks who prefer structure and
order, unschooling wouldn’t fit. That was part of my resistance to it
– I thought I’d have to take on someone else’s view of what a
successful laid-back personality is. Mmmm, perhaps I was wrong ..

***

I think this is a common misconception.

Cameron’s girlfriend’s mom once described me as “flighty” (after I tried to
explain unschooling to her).
Cracked Ben, my husband, up! <G> Ben’s a Lt Col in the Air National Guard—and
a Citadel grad, so
he’s kind of known for structure! <bwg> But he knows better than to describe
*me* as flighty! <g>

I’m pretty organized and structured. I just don’t enforce that on my kids.
They’re developing their own
levels of structure. Cameron has a daytimer and a calendar to keep track of his
very, very busy life. He
purposefully *makes* time to meditate and drum and write letters to friends
every day. He works—nothing
9-5, but he has several parttime jobs to keep track of. Plus band practice and a
girlfriend whom he sees
every day.

Structure dos NOT mean that we enforce workbooks and lessons. It means that we
have some organized plans
for the day/week/month/year. To not have some kind of structure to my day would
mean not getting nearly as
much done! Ren’s teasing me that I’m just spasoid! <G> No, I’m just *high
energy* and need to plan and
organize MY stuff in order to fit it all in!

We have calendars or daytimers in every room! We’re already planning all of next
year’s trips, birthdays,
holidays, celebrations, etc. NOW, so that we can do what all we want to do. This
also gives us some idea
of what all we can accomplish as well as where to put $$ so that we don’t run
out before the end of the
year! Sometimes it means sacrificing a few things, but by planning we can decide
what’s more important.

Ren has set up this ATC trade. I’m going to have to fit it into the
schedule—pick a day or two, set
up the (new) art room, gather supplies, (maybe order a pizza <g>), make sure
everyone’s set aside that time
and that it doesn’t conflict with work or school (Cam’s schooled girlfriend is
joining us). If I didn’t do
all that….well, it *might* get done, but it would probably be haphazard. I’m
NOT haphazard! <g> I won’t
schedule it and then expect everyone to work with what *I* decide: I’ll need to
work *with* all of us—AND
get it done by Jan 8th. I work best with deadlines! <G>

We have critters and gardens and —well, just STUFF that needs to be cared for
daily . I have classes
(fencing) and clients (dog grooming) that need to be scheduled around.

Some days (MOST days) I tell myself to do one big thing or two little things on
my list. That could mean
checking on the bees and cleaning the dining room (two little things) or weeding
the garden OR painting the
bedroom (one big thing). That’s just to cross things off my (ever-growing) list.
I also need to set aside
time to read/write to Y’ALL! <G> Not to mention
laundry/cooking/cleaning/etc.—you know, regular stuff.

The conference starts before the last conference ends! Contracts and plans, etc.
I have “count-downs” as
we get closer, and I look forward to crossing things off lists! <G> Big thrill!
<bwg>

I NEED structure—I have too much to do without it. As busy as we ARE, I cannot
imagine making someone
do workbooks or enforcing lessons. There’s simply not enough TIME!

I know my children will develop what THEY need in order to organize their
lives—I watch it evolve as they
find how little time they have to do all the things the want to do. We’re a busy
family, and we all need to
figure out how best to work within the 24/7/365 thang.

Am I spontaneous? Hmmmm….I spontaneusly decided to put on a conference, which
took 13 months to
pull off that first year! <g> I spontaneously decided I wanted bees, so I did
research and met beekeepers
and, yes, got my bees! <G> I’ve always wanted to raise a guide dog puppy, so we
applied! <G>

So, yes, there’s spontaneity—I’ll pack up and take off for the beach if
nothing else is planned for
that day. I’ll just put off something else to another day! <G> The kids LOVE
that kind of thing! Picnics
in the park, painting their bedrooms—whatever.

But everyone is different. I don’t think I could function without structure.
Maybe Ren avoids it! <Bwg>

***

I will be the first to admit that I am not the most orderly, need structure
type person, but I have kids who are more that way. What I found was that while
we don’t have a schedule or chore chart or anything like that we still have a
basic rhythm to our days. We all get up and go to sleep about the same time
everyday, and while we don’t have set meal times we all tend to gravitate to the
kitchen about the same time. I have even noticed that if somebody realizes
someone else is fixing something to eat it causes a kind of domino affect
because it’s just more fun to graze in the kitchen with company.:0)
I suppose the main point I wanted to share that really helped my kids’ need
for structure was that I set aside a block of time for them each day. I am
available all the time, but from 9-12 each morning I am here for ONLY them. I
don’t answer the phone, do house work, run errands, or pursue my own interests,
I am there and present with them for whatever they need that day. They know
this is set aside for them, they look forward to it, they save stuff for me to
do with them during that time because they know my attention is undivided. In
the afternoon, I start the wash, pay the bills, whatever the day calls for…
and I am still there, just not undivided like the morning. It works for us
anyway.:0)

***

My question for those of you who are past having YOUNG children:
How did you get things done/stay on top of things. I have children who are
6, 4, 1. I am one of those personalities a bit like Kelly, organized, list
making, need some rhythm and some sort of structure to know what to expect.
How in the WORLD can I have something like this for myself, which I really
crave but can’t seem to achieve, and also be there for my children?

What I’m asking for here are specific ideas/examples of how some of you did
things back in the day of young children, nursing babies who don’t nap, and
so on!

***

My kids are a bit older now, 9 and 5, but they are both “high needs” kids.
Plus, my husband is gone frequently. When they were younger, I just had to
surrender to their needs and figure out how to make the best of it. My
structure was to get everyone fed and have some laundry going and a bit of
cleaning
done here and there. Otherwise, I HAD to be on their schedule. My toddlers
that didn’t nap would usually do so in the car if I timed it well. I would
drive until they slept and then parked and read books or magazines! When
the oldest didn’t nap anymore, we would park at home and play in the yard.
Didn’t do much for getting things done, but gave me some peace. One friend of
mine had success putting the baby in the stroller to nap and then was able to
bring the stroller in the house.

Now that my kids are a little older, I get up before them and have some “me”
time. I’m starting to implement the same idea of “less available”, but mine
is in the morning. I can do a lot before they wake up and then they are
usually happy to play without much input from me for a bit. I’m starting to
“enforce” that a bit more because it makes me much more mentally available in
the afternoon than when I have a running to-do list in my head. So, if my kids
need me in the morning, I’ll stop what I’m doing, but if they just want me
for something, I say that I really want to do that, but is it something that
can wait until the afternoon. It has taken a few times, but they are starting
to get the idea and appreciate that I’m really available in the afternoons.

I’ve read an interesting idea recently about our work and hormone balance
and I must say when I remember to do it, it makes a difference! Since as
SAHM’s we don’t really have defined times of “work” and “off-work”, we can
create
them by mentally defining work time. You start your “work day” by saying to
yourself, “now I am at work”. You are probably doing the same things as
usual, but mentally declare yourself at work. You should probably take
“breaks”
just like you would at a job. My children are also my job, so if they need
me, I am still on the job. I just keep declaring myself at work. Then I
break for lunch. I say to myself “now I am taking some time for lunch”. I let
myself think about what has been accomplished and feel proud for something
done for about a minute. This shifts the hormones. I take an hour for lunch
and then mentally “go back to work”. Even if I am at the beach, or playing
with the kids, or checking my email, I keep telling myself that I am “at
work”.
After a few hours, I repeat the process of feeling proud of my afternoon
and that now I am “off work”. It really makes a difference in how I feel!
Again, what I am “doing” doesn’t change, but just my thoughts about what I was
doing. I also felt less resentful of interruptions by the kids when I was
able to think, “it is all part of the job”. I also notice that I usually get
more done.

***

When I was worrying out loud on the Always Unschooled list about how
I am drawn, over and over again, to make a schedule and a learning
plan for my son, someone said to me, “Just because you can’t organize
HIM and schedule him doesn’t mean you can’t organize yourself.” That
was an a-ha moment for me. What I have done with that is sit down
once a week and look through resource books like Mudpies to Magnets,
Family Math for Young Children, books with craft ideas, or recipes
for cookies or cake. If there’s a project or game I think looks like
fun, I make sure we have the supplies or ingredients on hand. I
either strew it or offer it to my son as an option sometime during
the week. It meets my need to plan without pressuring him.

I have also scheduled–loosely–special one-on-one time with my son,
which happens if he wants it as soon as the baby goes down for his
nap. Sometimes he says he is busy with other things; other times he
is happy to read together, work puzzles, play games, do play-dough,
paint, bake something, watch a video together, do a craft–and during
this time I offer him choices from my list of things I have planned,
or just ask him what he would like to do. The “laid-back” part is he
gets to choose; I’m just ready with choices in case he doesn’t have
an idea right away. Having it scheduled also helps me discipline
myself to spend that time with him, instead of getting caught up in
crossing things off my to-do list.

***

I have been kind of struggling in this area. We are two years into
unschooling and absolutely love it. BUT, lately I have been
questioning myself as to whether or not *I* am doing things
correctly. As if there is a right or wrong way, but I do believe
certain situations can be better than others.

I posted earlier jokingly about whether anyone has figured out how
to clone themselves because it feels as though life is throwing
things at me in the speed and quantity of raindrops. Honestly, that
IS what it feels like. My son is an independant soul at heart and
very happy to spend his time alone. Adding to this, so am I. With
everything that has been going on this past year I really feel that
maybe I am short changing him. His favorite things to do are play
PS2, computer games, watch The Simpson, Family Guy and South Park.
Even I have started to watch A LOT of television. I never used to
do that. I was thinking about it while I was reading everyone’s
posts and it came to me that I feel like I am “de-lifing”. It has
just been feeling SO good to do “nothing” for a change.

How often do you offer an activity? Do you talk about goals and
plan things together regularly? Is it “normal” to spend weeks or
even months not doing much of anything? Is it okay that we only
play a board game less than once per month? How do I involve my
son, almost 12 years, in activities with me? We are usually the
only two at home. The four oldest are young adults living their own
lives. Pat works all day, and the other two younger ones attend
PS. Although, we are making a final decision over Christmas break
about bringing our youngest girl, almost 16, home for good. So, it
may not just be the two of us very soon. I find that exciting!

Anyway, I don’t mean to sound negative. I’m just trying to find
myself here. I know some of my examples are silly, but I really
have been feeling like I’m not offering enough. Any advice on how
to get two introverts out and about and off the couch are VERY
welcome…or, permission to stay put is fine too?

***

I have a disability, it’s called SFD, Structure Function Disorder.

Ok, seriously, I don’t think my brain really thinks is a very
organized manner…but it depends. If you need some organization
method for a closet, or paperwork (my BANE) you want to talk with my
dh. If you want someone that is good at planning and executing
events, projects or groups, talk to me.

I hate other people’s structure imposed on me….but I have come up
with my own haphazard methods of structure that work for ME.
I tend to like freeflowing days, without too much planned, so I can
be spontaneous. I’ll keep lists of stuff on the bulletin board and
if I feel like doing something when the date hits, I’ll do it.
I don’t like planning to attend something and when the date comes I
feel obligated, so I keep obligations to a minimum.

Structure means different things to different people, each family is
going to have different needs that way too…but it never equals
schooling in my world.:)

What do
you tell other homeschoolers and non-homeschoolers when they ask what
you use (meaning curriculum)? Every other homeschooler that I’ve
come across up to this point has used a formal curriculum (typically
a comprehensive one that takes 4, 5 and 6 hours a day to get
through! UGGGHH. I’ve typically been saying that we take a
literature based approach…we use real books, real life and learn
about anything and everything we interested in. But I usually get
complete and total silence combined with a really confused or
mystified look (it’s soooo quiet you can hear the crickets chriping
outside). Needless to say, I don’t usually even get far enough in a
conversation to elaborate on how we don’t use ANY formal curriculum
and don’t have a schedule - I do feel that our routine gives us our
structure but we don’t “do school”. I have talked to Alexandra (7)
about what people mean when they ask what she is doing in “school” so
she’s gotten pretty good about telling people what books we’re
reading, what critters we’ve caught and keep, that she LOVES math and
is obsessively practicing her reading. Anyway, just wondering what
others say and if you get the same “can hear the crickets chirping”
moments?!?!

***

I say something like “Once you are out of the school paradigm of having to
address the needs of thirty students, a whole new world of educational
possibilities opens up. I find that I am able to tailor a custom curriculum
for
each child, addressing his needs, interests and goals in the context of
day-to-day real life experiences.”

They quit listening at “paradigm” and assume I know what I am doing.

And there is the popular unschooling joke, “we are self-directed learners,
would you pass the bean dip?”

***

I feel very confident about what we do and don’t do….I guess I’m
still in awe at all the people still homeschooling just like we
initially started out 17 plus years ago. I was so delighted that
what my parents seemed to have stumbled onto so long ago was now
actually an entire APPROACH to homeschooling!! I assumed that most
homeschoolers would have figured it out….apparently not so. And I
believe my mom held up a smokescreen of “appropriate” sounding
educationese and nobody really did alot of indepth questioning back
then - they were typically too schocked that we were just doing it in
the first place. My father is a minister and there were some issues
in our church with families that included public school teachers. My
mom and dad always say now that my sister and I are their proof that
they did the right thing. And now interestingly enough, the public
school teacher friends are in complete agreement with ME
homeschooling - some of THEIR kids are looking into homeschooling
THEIR kids!!

***

Since we tend to be closet unschoolers with those we
don’t know well, I just give a vague statement such as
“a little bit of this, a little bit of that” or “we
are very eclectic — learning from lots of different
resources”. I like these because they are the truth
(important if I get to know the person better and I
wish to elaborate later on our unschooling), but
enough to satify the person who might never get to
know us further.

There’s no need to say literature based unless that is
what you are doing.

***

It took a while for my husband to start to “get” this. That Allie
practiced her reading at night (not during typical school hours)
snuggled on my lap and because she so desperately wants to really,
really be a real, real reader (lol), that getting her allowance and
spending and budgeting (for her layaway projects!) and playing
monopoly, etc. were all “math” (and she thinks it’s a blast), that
writing her thank you cards, notes, memory verses and scrapbook
journaling (!!!) are all writing, and that all the great books that we
read and shows that we watch, exploring that we do and trips we take
cover history, science, and so on! And these are things she loves to
do…why tell her to stop so we can do something artificial and
contrived in it’s place?! I do believe he has accepted that all as
being what he needs to call “school” but we just call life and real
learning. And on the same note…all those activities DO require some
planning. The games and books, etc. don’t just magically fly off the
shelf and set themselves up. I need to be mindful of my kids’
requests, desires and interests and available to make the time to the
fun things they like to do and include them in all that I do.

Note: If I am rambling it is only because I have completely exhausted
my family and friends with my ramblings, can’t do so at the homeschool
group get-togethers that I’m part of and (apparently) am desperately in
need of someone to ramble on and on and on to! So thank you!

***

I don’t usually
share that I unschool. For example, I just met a mom at the library
and she commented about “is there no school today?” upon seeing the
kids at the library with me during school hours. I responded with “I
don’t have a clue…we homeschool”.

I do want to share unschooling with even more people, so I am trying
to find easy ways to explain unschooling confidently to just about
anyone. I need a bumpersticker for my car. I want to be like Heidi
in Alaska when I grow up <g>.

***

One thing that we encourage people to do is let go of seeing everything they
do in terms of labeling it schoolish subjects in favor of living life and
seeing unlimited connections. Certainly that can result in a bit of double
think in States that require assessments. The next mental step is to focus
on what they are doing instead of trying to quantify what they are learning.

Unschoolers aren’t practicing for life. Unschoolers don’t make cookies to
learn math. They make cookies to make cookies - math understanding happens
as a side effect.

Unschoolers read (or ask to be read to) because they are interested in the
content of the material. Getting better at reading happens as a side effect.

I suspect that is what is actually happening at your house. However by
obsessively questioning our own word use we can sometimes discover
assumptions hiding in our heads unwittingly.

That is why I would ask you to not merely be satisfied with all the
demonstrably wonderful ways that you *are* living joyfully and mindfully
with your children.

Instead I would ask you to push just a little further and examine for
yourself the non-Unschooling ideas that some of your words revealed. Those
examinations may lead you to climb all the way to the top of the mountain
where the view is even better, instead of stopping at the penultimate
plateau.

<<<<we don’t offer them the choice>>>>>

<<<<< We work together and we all have our own jobs and
responsibilities.>>>>

<<<<<<I would have a problem with that.>>>>>

<<<<<<The girls don’t choose >>>>>

<<<<< I don’t consider that an option >>>>>

One purpose of this list is not to support people in remaining static, but
to help them think even more deeply about Unschooling and move forward in
that journey.

We’ve been slowly giving our daughters (7 & 10) more and more control over their choices. We started with eating, then playstation and then using the computer thats used for software (we have two, one has internet, one is for software). They love going online and I’ve found some really cool sites that they love to visit.

How do you handle internet access? Are your children able to surf the ‘net freely? Do you check out the sites they visit before they go on?

Also…what are their favorite sites? I’d love to have a few more to show them. I started a floppy disk for each of them and they enjoy looking at it to see what new sites I added for them. Some of their interests are horses, barbie, disney, fairies, harry potter, coloring pages, reading, art, writing, jokes, animals…

***

DS is 7 and he has always had free access (as much as was possible
back when we had one computer, now we’ve got 4, on a wireless network
so they all have Internet access). We put his favorite sites right up
front when he opens his browser. He knows that it is possible to surf
and he’s seen us do it - he just has no interest in roaming the Web at
this point - partly, I think, because he doesn’t see a need to, since
he has access to the things he wants and free range to find more with
our help if he wants it - and we proactively find things for him to
check out (as you are doing). Plus, surfing does require a bit of
spelling and he just has little interest in that at this point. One
time he was on a site that also had a pay-to-play section. He clicked
on the icon and it popped up a message that he needed to get his
parents for this. So he came and got me (obviously, since he couldn’t
go forward). I read it and we discussed it - what it was, how much it
cost (I related the cost per month to number of Happy Meals so he
could grasp it - he was maybe 4 or 5 at the time), and he decided he’d
rather not spend the money for it.

I can’t say for sure what he really likes now - he’s more into network
gaming with DH (Age of Empires and StarCraft) than Internet gaming
right now. He did like neopets for quite a while and goes back to it
every now and again (I’ve got a neopet also and I’ll pop in and feed
both pets regularly so they don’t ’starve’).

***
My 12 1/2 yr old son has had his own computer since he
was three (Grandpaw thought he shouldn’t have to share
with mom and dad). Right now we have five working
computers, all are hooked up but they all have
different uses. I firmly believe the computer needs to
be in a public place, but my kids don’t have TV’s in
their room either. We have never restricted their
access with any kind of “NetNanny” type program or
prescreening but have always warned them about going
to places that were not appropriate and what to do if
they should land somewhere they felt they shouldn’t
be. Just make sure your virus software is up to date
because some of those kid places (gamespy comes to
mind) are hotbeds for junk. I also love using Mozilla
because I find the pop up ads on IE reprehensible. You
can check the history on your browser, I do
periodically and the kids know it. My ten yr old will
still ask me sometimes to help her find something but
my son now leave windows open for me to look at, I
used to do that for him (still do). Oh, and if they
want to sign up for something they have to ask first
and they know to never give ANYONE their name or
location. My son even created a persona I let him use
when sites require info. The Internet is the whole
world at their fingertips!

***

If you set a timer, you limit how full they can fill their own pail.

Just something to consider.

We use Firefox and Netscape browsers and set up profiles for each
family member (and the neighborhood kids who visit regularly and
whose parents give the OK ) and set individual start pages with
picture links to our younger kids favorite sites. (My 17 year old
thought it was cool and set up her own as well.)

It’s just simple html (we name each person’s with their own name, ie:
zack.html) in a specific folder on the C drive. Then you go to
preferences and set your start page to that file. VERY simple and
VERY effective. (I love profiles! We each have our own bookmarks,
too, because of having them. I have a HUGE file and everyone else
innthe family has a smaller one, so it saves them having to go
through my stuff to get to their own. :-} )

We don’t specifically sit there and monitor every second that they
are on but we have all of the computers in the front room (except my
daughter’s - we recently ran a line to her room and she sometimes
goes online in her room and sometimes in the front room) so it’s
easily seen by everyone in the room. (They often bounce back and
forth between each other’s computers checking out what they are each
on.) They love playing games with each other and really love those
interactive sites where you create a play a character and interact
with other characters - we’ve recently discovered Disney’s Virtual
Magic Kingdom ( http://vmk.disney.go.com ) and the older kids like
MapleStory (do NOT let younger kids onn this one - the content is OK
but many of the players are not very nice. (The Disney one has a
limited allowable vocabulary and is policed for appropriate
behavior.) There is another one that I wanted to have them try
because it was recommended a while ago by homeschoolers (before they
got interested in these kind of games) as a safe and fun game but I
had it bookmarked on my old laptop (which blew it’s motherboard)
where I can’t currently access it. :-{

My youngest (7) always asks about new sites - he memorizes sites in
TV ads and magazines and asks if he can go see them. Then look at it
with him (or the 17 year old does :-} ). If it’s one he likes we
add it to his start page. When he just wants to look specific things
up one of us will searh with him. He likes using Yahooligans.

The older ones (12 and 17) pretty much surf as they wish. We’ve
never had a problem with any of the kids winding up on a “bad” page.
Guess we’ve been lucky . . . :-}

Neopets ( http://www.neopets.com ) is a good site (our whole family
does this one). You “adopt” pets (all fictional animals - for
instance, one of mine is a Grrral - basically a Tyranosaurau Rex.
You can feed them, play games for Neopoints (”money”), can have
a bank account, can buy and sell stocks, can own a shop and buy from
others’ shops, and so much more. (Just check it out. :-} )

Power Pets ( http://www.powerpets.com ) which teaches about caring
for animals as well as being fun - you “adopt” pets but they are
“real” animals (not created for the game like on Neopets) like dogs
and foxes and owls and many more. You can play games (not as many as
on Neopets but they are slowly growing) for power points (”money”),
have a bank account, you can have your own shops and buy from other
people’s shops, you can join neighborhoods, you can publish books
(well, you submit them for publication) that you and other players
can then read, and much more.

Millsberry ( http://www.millsberry.com ) is a little bit different.
You create a character (human) and play as that character but it’s
not interactive/live action like Disney VMK or MapleStory. You can
play games for “money” (as well as building other characteristics but
I can’t remember the names of them just now), have a bank account, go
to school, read books, buy costumes and clothes for your character,
choose a neighborhood and “build” a house (you start with three rooms
but can now add to that), create music mixes and more.

There’s a lot at Disney, including a nice little game/quiz about
online safety. I cant remember the exact URL - something like
http://go.disney.com .

My grandson loves NickJr.com ( http://nickjr.com ) and Sesame Street
(I think it’s http://sesamestreet.com but I’m not sure).

I know there are others but that’s all I can think of at the moment.

“So, you talk about it openly and its not a fascination. But that doesn’t mean they wont drink. Will you allow it?”

I’ve already “allowed” it…. My children know that I’m not against drinking, I have issues with irresponsible drinking. I trust them to make their own decisions, I trust that will be the best decision for their life. I also give them good information ahead of time if I see something that might go wrong.

My oldest knows that I will gladly pick him up at any time of night, from ANYWHERE, no questions asked. His closest friends are unschoolers too….none of them think drinking is anything fascinating. They don’t care about being out late, they are up late anytime they want. They don’t crave getting away from their families, they think their families are pretty awesome. Many factors are affecting how these teens interact with their peers and community. Far different from my own life.

I recognize that I can’t allow or disallow anything…only create a situation in which we have optimum communication and trust. He’s going to do things whether I allow it or not, he’s 15!! He has no reason to sneak or try anything harmful, his parents are on his side.

Not to say he won’t do things I disagree with…that is a very real possibility, but something I’m prepared to accept and keep dialogue open about.

Actually, he plays video games and listens to music I find very disagreeable at times. But it all comes back to trust. I see the violent video games and scratch my head, but then he joins eace rallies and shows a depth of character and kindness that not many at his age seem to possess and I know he’s following his own light.

If he chooses to drink or have sex, he will be armed with good information, parents that are available, more common sense than most teens and the ability to know himself on a deep level. That’s going into it well armed….more than I ever had.

***

the question I was asking is whether they can sit at home and get drunk?

***

What I read so far (to boil it down) is, why would they want to sit around and get drunk? Getting drunk isn’t all that much fun UNLESS you’re getting away with something. It interferes with too many things (coordination for gaming, doing all sorts of physical activities, being coherent when watching a movie, etc). Having a drink or two (anywhere) with friends, conversation, food, etc. is very different than a bunch of people sitting around with the intent of drinking a lot and being, can’t think of another word for it, flat stupid.

My DS is only 7 but he already has seen the difference between when (several relatives) are drunk and not. He has seen DH have a beer or two at gatherings and stop at that while others continue on down the boozy road (I rarely drink - a glass of wine puts me to sleep and I’d hate to miss out on stuff because I just wanted to curl up and take a nap). By the time he’s a teen, I am hoping that we’ll have had many  opportunities to discuss this and ore topics (smoking, drugs, sex,  etc) - he already knows he doesn’t ike the way grandma’s house smells when all the smokers are over there. We’re not likely to ‘ban’ alcohol but neither are we going to hand him a beer to celebrate his 13th birthday. Balance in all things

***

I have a problem with a lot of laws. But that’s another issue in and of itself! <g> I’m not wild about laws that have to do with *me* and no one else. I don’t need protection from myself! Neither do my children. Too much government!!!

In SC it is only illegal for a minor (under 21) to *purchase* alcohol. Nothing about consumption. I think it’s smart to know your state laws!

I have no problem allowing my children to drink in my home, and I’ve poured my son a glass of wine when at a restaurant. We’re enophiles here, so we encourage a basic knowledge of wines. And none of us is a wino! <g>

Open, honest communication. Know your laws. Be sure your children do too. But you can lead their lives for them!

Am I right in saying that the goal of unschooling is not necessarily to get the job they want, but that that will probably happen as a by-product.

I have just read the article by Kelly Lovejoy on the stages of unschooling and I have some questions I would appreciate your thoughts on.

Okay, so unschooling is fun, living is learning. Learnng and making connections happen everywhere. Can you tell me how it can serve a child if they say spend hours a day watching Scooby-Doo, then after a break they go and play Harry Potter for a few hours (this is hypothetical, well maybe not the Scooby-Doo). I hear how not to worry because they are making connections and learning. Does the televison and game playing become a habit that is all the child then wants to do. They may pick up snippets of information from cartoons, but compared to the hours watching, it seems little knowledge return really.

Yes the child is having fun, but what skills are they learning that they can use in the world outside their home? What skills will they get that can help them function as adults? How can this compare to schooled peers who are learning a variety of different things?

I know we live in a technological society, but shouldn’t a childs world have more in it than just cartoons and computer games? Is this where strewing comes in?

***

Okay, watching run after run of Fairly Odd Parents, going for a bounce on the trampoline, then playing Barbie My Scene on the computer followed by more Fairly Odd Parents, a bit of paier mache then off to bed. That is not hypothetical.

I haven’t strewed and know there is more I should be offering, but I am considering limiting the television. And No I would not have a problem if they read all day long, (though maybe if it was the same book over again…)

It just seems that lots of children watch lots of tv and play lots of games, with a bit of other things sprinkled in, is this enough? I don’t think it is enough for my dd.

***

Are you bringing home or working on things that YOU are interested in? I LOVE looking for new games, art stuff, even recipes from the internet (as well as out in the rest of world). My kids sometimes jump right in, sometimes not. Sometimes they will use things in ways I could never have imagined. Could you look for books, toys, art supplies, etc. that could go along with what they are watching/playing? Are there any online printouts featuring those characters or games you could make up to get a little physical with it?

My son is really into underwater stuff and scours books, draws, makes things out of dough, tells stories from his imagination, plays games, etc. all featuring his favorite underwater animals.

I do think that if you have interesting things left where they can find them or if you play with them, the kids are more likely to take breaks from what they are doing.

Also, maybe you could just talk to them and let them know you would ike to try some new things and ask for suggestions of cool places
they would like to go or things they would like to try?

***

We have days like this. Probably tomorrow, in fact, as this weekend was really long and we’re all in need of a rest…

But then other days look like: park day with friends, exploring the farmer’s market for ours, searching for shells at the beach, reading, library trips, shopping bike rides, concerts in the park, gardening, crafts, painting, computer games, etc, etc, etc, Why would anyone, child or adult, *need* more than this in life?

***

Okay, watching run after run of Fairly Odd Parents, going for a bounce on the trampoline, then playing Barbie My Scene on the computer followed by more Fairly Odd Parents, a bit of paier mache then off to bed. That is not hypothetical.

-=-=-=-

We’ve had days like this. Many, in fact. But think back on your own childhood. Does that look like a Saturday? Or a summer vacation day? “School” is only in session for 180 days! <g>

But at the same time, can you measure what has been going on in her head during this time? Have the two of y’all talked at all during this typical day? Why didn’t you include that? Talking is a HUGE part of our unschooling lives—we ALL learn so much by chatting and questioning.  Were *you* involved in her day at all?

-=-=-=-=-

I haven’t strewed and know there is more I should be offering, but I am considering limiting the television. And No I would not have a problem if they read all day long, (though maybe if it was the same book over again…)

-=-=-=-

Again, there’s that paradigm shift! Seeing books as more valuable than tv—THEY’RE BOTH EDUCATIONAL! After you can *see* that, it will make so much sense! Really!

And why should it matter that someone else is reading the same book over and over? Maybe she’s getting something new each time. Maybe she’s having trouble digesting a difficult part. Maybe she’s trying to memorize passages. Maybe she’s just so comforted by the book!

Duncan and I have worked out a deal with cartoons. He wants to watch the same ones over and over. I have no problem watching them once or
twice, but the eleventh time of the same Family Guy can drive me to tears. We have three tvs. AFter a while, I just ask him to take that one up to his room. I can’t watch it any more. I just can’t. But he doesn’t care for M*A*S*H reruns either <g>, so I’ll watch that on my own time!

Limiting the tv will make it even more desirable—-NOT what you’re looking for. Just offer cooler stuff than what’s on TV! Seriously! Be cooler than Wanda & Cosmo of The Fairly Odd Parents (one of my faves! <g>).

-==-=-=-

It just seems that lots of children watch lots of tv and play lots of games, with a bit of other things sprinkled in, is this enough? I don’t think it is enough for my dd.
-=-=-=-=-=-

I was at a Toastmaster’s meeting a few months ago and was, as usual, bragging about my boys! <G> Caroline had asked what they do, and I had
gone on and on about what Cameron (17) was up to and where he was going and where he had been and what he wanted to accomplish and so on and on and on. Then she asked about Duncan (9). I fumbled a bit and then said that he played video games and board games and card games and math games and word games and tv games (Scene It!) and pool/water games and imaginary games and puzzles and…. Suddenly I realized that Duncan had a “Gaming Curriculum”! <g>

PLEASE don’t underestimate the value of games! They are INVALUABLE! I can’t imagine our lives without them!

I think your last statement is telling—what does your daughter think?

***

Would you feel the same way if a child did little more than read, or play a musical instrument? I know before I started unschooling, I felt this way. I let society hand me a prejudice.

A child’s brain (and an adult’s for that matter!) is always having a conversation, making connections, thinking. It can be a conversation with an instrument, a book, a person, a video game, a tv show, a baseball/bat, his  body, his own thoughts and sometimes all the above at the same time. Sometimes a brain wants some rest, or maybe just mull over some of those connections and maybe not necessarily cognitively.

I also believe that using the brain is using the brain. In other words, if you like to walk or run for fitness, you are using your heart. While your heart gets stronger and you can walk or run faster, your heart is also stronger for all the other zillions of things you do all day, not just walking. An
exercised brain is an exercised brain. While you may be reading a book about dinosaurs, are dinosaurs really all your brain comes away with from that reading session? What if the information in that book wasn’t correct, a picture was labeled incorrectly, are you forever going to refuse to rename that dinosaur? No, when the correct info. comes along, you say “oh, I thought that was a brontosaurus, now I will call it a brachiosaurus.” No big deal.

Of course, we want our children to live rich lives and be exposed to a myriad of ideas and things. It is natural for most of us to seek out different experiences. If not, humanity might still only be eating berries and living in caves.

A child that is supported (and even better with a parent that is wholeheartedly interested in what the child is interested in!) and that lives in a rich environment…even if that environment isn’t “taken advantage of”, will experience a full life. It  will not necessarily look like the neighbor’s, the schooled kid’s, the urbanite’s, the rural’s, his sister’s or his parents!

One more thing, (and I’ll shut up ) as I understand it, “well-rounded” is a term that was used by the elite classses. Their lives were really boring, they had no real work to do, so it became important to be a  well-rounded person in order not to bore the pants off everybody at the social functions. With the rise of the middle class, they snapped up the idea so they could be like the elite. Also, it is a great time filler for 12+ years, 180 days, 6 hours a day of confinement, uh I mean “education”.

I don’t see how a child with access to books, tv and computer could help not learn a million different ideas. My son that LOVES tv can pick out chinese characters as chinese. Where the heck did that come from? He can show me several countries on a map, although we have only discussed a few (my DH is in Japan, so we purposely discussed that one). Learning happens because we are born to learn.

***

Sometimes we just have to be very patient to see what is really going on when connections are being made–it might not be obvious immediately. I know I was a little nervous when my fourteen year old watched a lot of comedies (my problem not his–I still have some schoolish ideas to weed out of my thinking.) I couldn’t believe all of the cool connections he made just from watching one episode of Fawlty Towers. There were references to WWII and Germany and it started a whole plethora of activity. He read two huge reference books on WWII, a biography on Hitler, used his flight simulator to fly over WWII sites of interest, started learning German, watched documentaries of WWII and Hitler. Just imagine that came all from watching one half hour show. I’m so glad I didn’t interfere and ask him not to watch so much t.v. or he may never had made those learning connections. We never know what might be a catalyst to learn something new. We just really have to trust our children will learn what they need to learn when the time is right.

***
I have to agree that children do make connections.e.g My youngest two have both been inspired to learn about tropical fish, coral reefs, whales, turtles and oceans just for watching Finding Nemo. This led on to water ph and a bit of chemistry, the water cycle and conservation and then they watched Lord Of the Rings and wanted to learn about castles and medieval history. Thomas the Tank Engine inspired an interest in the working of steam trains. My dd learnt about Forensic medicine after watching Quinsy( for weeks lol). My eldest son is learning Egytology as a knock on from all the ancient history he got interested in due to playing Civilisation, Age of Mythology and Rome Total War on his computer. He has been offered an early uni place next year to do history if he wants it but that was not the point of it all. I never imagined any of these pursuits would lead on to any of the further learning it did. It was them that decided and made the choices to follow things up. All these things may never have been learnt if I had said “Turn off Finding Nemo or don’t play that computer game anymore.” Don’ t ever think anything a child does is a dead end pursuit cos it isn’t. Trust them to know what they need to learn in their own good time.

***

I don’t think that anyone can watch TV or play video games as mindless zombies. There’s *something* going on in their heads even if it doesn’t LOOK like there is. Head over to Sandra Dodd’s web site and read her article on watching Gilligan’s Island at http://sandradodd.com/t/gilligan I think it might help you to relax a bit.

I’m just throwing out my cyber-observation based on what you have written, and I may be completely off base, but it’s all I have to go on. I get the feeling from your posts, (I don’t know your name because you don’t sign your posts), that you are watching your -so- child intently and waiting for them to *do* something . Anything really.

I can’t help but think that maybe you’re watching them too closely, too critically. And they know that. And now it’s become a battle of wills. You’re not going to concede that they are “really” learning anything until you see them building plywood out of pencil shavings or something really inspired; your child IS learning lots of cool things, but they’re not going to talk to you about it because they think you’ll probably shoot it down as not “real” learning, “real” connections, “real” valid. So they keep it to themselves and you get more frustrated because you are still not *seeing* results. ‘Round and ’round.

After all, if your child were in school they would be free on Summer vacation right now anyway. Try to relax about this stuff and let things unfold. They *will* unfold, but I think you might need to take a few steps back and a couple of deep breaths. Let go of your expectations. Go along for the ride and see where it leads.

***

I’ve been reading the thread on cartoons and computer games with interest. Before I began unschooling last October I was very strict about TV viewing and we didn’t even own any video games. My boys were respectful and loving at that time, both to each other, their friends and the adults in their lives. I’ve noticed that since they started watching commercial TV (almost exclusively Nickelodeon), they have become more rude to each other. There’s such an adversarial relationship between them now. I hear things come out of their mouths that are straight from their shows. They are also more disrespectful of adults and girls (I have two boys). Again, I see this modeled after all the cartoons they watch. One of my ds3’s favorite phrases now is, “I’m going to kick your butt.” Since my husband and I don’t use this type of language, I know he gets it from TV. Most of our friends are still
very strict about TV viewing, so I don’t hear it from their kids. In fact, my children have now become the ‘bad influences.”

When ds7 was about 5 he discovered a Calvin and Hobbs book of cartoons that we had. At first I thought this was great because he is an artist and it was spurring him on to create his own cartoons and read. However, very soon after this, he started acting like Calvin! We had several talks about it but I finally just took the book away thinking he was too young for it. Well, recently he asked about the book again. Wanting to be a good unschooler, I decided to give it back to him because this was where his interests were. We had a talk about how Calvin wasn’t a real person and that in real life, at least in ours, we try to work out our challenges in a more respectful way. I explained about how the point of the book was to be funny, which it was, but it’s still not appropriate in real life. He said he completely understood and agreed to not use the phrases and behaviors that Calvin uses. Well, only a few days later he was at my friends house, and she told me about an incident where she had asked him to help her find his shoes so they could leave and when she left the room, he was muttering under his breath, but loud enough for her to hear. He was disgruntled about
helping. He was saying things like, “I don’t know why I have to help that fat little woman!” Now how Calvin is that?

He hasn’t asked for the book since them, so I haven’t addressed it with him. I want to take the book away, but I feel so unschooly about that. I’m stuck between seeing the negative effects of the things he finds enjoyable and allowing him to discover and learn in his own way. And don’t even get me started on the influence of all the commercials they are now watching!

When we weren’t watching the shows he wants to watch, I didn’t see this type of behavior. It’s not what we model for him in real life. I was hoping that our influence would be the dominate one, but it doesn’t seem to be. I’m seeing behaviors exhibited in both my sons that are concerning to me and it is tempting to just pull the plug on the TV. Of course I know that this would just create resentment in my children. I feel like I’ve opened Pandora’s Box and that it’s too late to take it all back. I think I could handle this all better if I was the only one experiencing this rude behavior, but it’s really a challenge to see them acting it out with other adults and kids.

***

We went through this when we moved a few years ago. Our new house was not ready before we had to be out of the old one so we moved in with my brother in laws family. My kids were 10 and 8 at the time and had never been allowed(nor ASK) to watch constant TV much less Sponge bob, Simpsons, or King of the Hill. My in Bil’s kids were constant cartoon TV watchers and never wanted to do anything else.Mine always liked Nature shows or History channel. My kids gave in and stared with the others…(they were made fun of for what they wanted to watch)

They were changed very quickly just like you mentioned. They became hateful to each other and everyone else, foul mouthed, and rude.They had always played outdoors and made crafts and invented games.

These habits were hard to break after they started and they will never be the same kids. Once something has been seen you cannot take it back.

I dont restrict the TV now nor did I before we moved. They just never found the silliness entertaining. Now that we have settled into a new home, They are back outside swimming or hiking. Hunting new bugs and building stuff. They watch the History channel and Animal Planet mostly, but on occasion they will still watch the cartoons they met at my Bil’s.

***

Humans learn by trying on what they see in the world around them. We know children learn from their parents and it’s only natural for them to learn from others. A child trying on new and different behaviors is engaging in a kind of scientific exploration.

It’s fun, to be sure, to try out new personalities and behaviors but it’s also a means by which humans gather information. It is very normal and any parent who thinks they want to or can stop it from happening will be very surprised. It happens with adults all the time and our children see it. When Sue mows her law we think, “man I better get out there and mow mine.” When a friend calls us over to see her new scrap booking stuff we go buy some and make plans for a scrapbook for grandma for Christmas. Don’t be fooled into thinking it’s a kid thing. Women change their hairstyles after seeing a nice one on some celebrity head.

Sometimes what a kid learns from trying on a new behavior is that it will really piss mom off. There might be a world of reasons a kid would want
to piss his mom off and those begin with the mom. It might be that he doesn’t want to make mom mad, sees the behavior then more clearly and stops it. Sometimes he learns he loves football. Sometimes he learns people will find him more interesting if he tells jokes. Sometimes he learns it can hurt other’s feelings. It’s all learning and it’s all valuable and very, very normal.

***He was disgruntled about helping. He was saying things like, “I don’t know why I have to help that fat little woman!” Now how Calvin is that?***

Maybe it was your real kid an not Calvin. Maybe she wasn’t as nice as she could have been. Maybe he feels like he has no real ability to express himself honestly. Maybe he was busy with something more important and she showed no consideration for that. Maybe it wasn’t “helping” at all but an order for a little person to do something a big person insisted upon.

I don’t think it was so bad. I think paying attention to a kids feelings is much more important than worrying about what our friends will think of us as parents. I would be more interested in what made him feel that way than in automatically classifying that as “bad behavior”. And something some parents never consider, kids respond to bad behavior with bad behavior. Chances are the reason he was feeling and acting that way and even said it is because he was responding in kind. The real difference here is adults are seldom called on bad or rude behavior if their target is a kid. It is not even considered rude or bad behavior when adults talk to kids the way they might talk to a dog. That’s just how it is. Lots of people never see it. But kids always do.

***I want to take the book away, but I feel so unschooly about that. I’m stuck between seeing the negative effects of the things he finds enjoyable and allowing him to discover and learn in his own way. And don’t even get me started on the influence of all the commercials they are now watching! ***

You won’t make his life better by making his world smaller. It will never work that way. But you, as the person he spends the most time with will have the biggest influence on him. You are more real than books and TV and you’re voice will be the loudest voice in his head. Forever. Make it the voice of fairness and reason and love.

Your kids are not alone in the world of books and TV. You’re influence is still important. Talk about what they’re reading and why it’s funny, why it’s good, why they like it. Does he like Calvin because he relates to a child who’s life is so controlled by adults he’s only really free and happy in his imagination?

You don’t have only the two options, “control” or “free for all”. Be involved with what your kids are reading and watching and talk with them about it. Acknowledge that it’s funny and why and talk about why some of it isn’t really good in our real lives. Acknowledge that sometimes the reason it’s funny is because it’s what we all wish we could do, but we don’t do it. Talk about why there are good reasons to not always act on our secret desires.

***And don’t even get me started on the influence of all the commercials they are now watching! ***

Commercials have been very positive here. The psychology of advertising is a much discussed and beloved subject in our house. Do some experimenting. Buy some things that are made to sound life changing and see if you like them. See if they all live up to the claims. Ask you kids if fruit roll-ups taste better out of the dinosaur box or the Nemo box. <g> Talk about why an advertiser would put a famous guy on a cereal box. Who do they hope will by that cereal? You’ll have a great time.

***I was hoping that our influence would be the dominate one, but it doesn’t seem to be. ***

Maybe your influence is stifling. Kids are under no obligation to be perfect. They are under no obligation to be clones of their parents or of the seemingly perfect kids of our friends. They need to be themselves and they need acceptance and love. You influence *is* bigger than any other but make sure it’s the influence you think it is. If you’re demonstrating a lack of regard for his feelings by criticizing his choices in TV he may demonstrate that lack of consideration back at you or a sibling. It’s possible to talk about the behaviors of TV characters without making a judgement about the program or the person who likes the program.

*** it is tempting to just pull the plug on the TV.***

Of course you can do this. You have the power and the authority.

But most of their lives will be lived away from your power and authority. They’ll spend sixteen or eighteen years with you and they’ll spend sixty years without you. In those sixteen or eighteen years, if you cannot think of a better way to help them learn than through externally enforced limits and controls, who will do their thinking for them when they’re on their own? Will it be a controlling spouse? A controlling boss? Business partner? Drug dealer?

With your positive input and real interested participation and guidance they can learn about good decision making and good behavior. With your
ultimate control they will learn to not trust their own judgement.

You will not be able to control outside influences on your kids. Whatyou are in control of is the kind of relationship you have with your kids. If your relationship is loving and respectful and strong your kids will value your opinions, trust your judgements, look to you for advice and hold you up as the standard instead of Calvin.

***I think I could handle this all better if I was the only one experiencing this rude behavior, but it’s really a challenge to see them acting it out with other adults and kids. ***

Don’t waste one minute worrying about what other people think of your kids, or think of you as a parent. This relationship is not about whether you’re living up to someone elses standard of parenting. Instead spend that time improving your relationship and communication with your kids. Worry about what your kids think of *you.*

You don’t owe your friends good kids. You owe your kids a big, happy life with a mom who’s right there helping along the way.

***

what I hear over and over is that unschooling is about breathing, trusting and honoring our kids. I love Alfie Kohn’s book, Unconditional Parenting, were he talks about parenting from either the basic belief that our children are born ‘bad’ and need to be reined in and taught how to be good, or from the basic idea that our children are born naturally good, with wonderful intentions to be kind, generous and loving. When I’m stressed and worried, I realize that I revert back to those old ideas that have been so prevalent in our culture. I also revert back to trying to be in control of everything in my life, most especially my kids. Thanks for bringing me back to reality and reminded me about the basic goodness of my children.

***

I get the feeling that you are desperately struggling to save your own sense of Self, and that the real problem may be an ever increasing fear that you
are losing your connection with your dear sons, and you are seeking ways to get that back. Your actions are likely to backfire - at least from an Unschooling point of view they are putting up barriers to building the deep Trust that is at the heart of Unschooling, rather than creating stepping
stones to bring you and your boys together.

You won’t get that connection back by holding on to expectations that they will have the same learning priorities that you do, or by trying to mold
them into some future ideal adult who is [fill in the characteristic you are hoping to instill eg "great reader"], or holding on to (even unexpressed) judgments about the worthiness of their interests, or maintaining a secret catalogue of their character flaws.

You are trying to light a fire under your kids because you are not willing to see the rosy blaze that is already burning behind their eyes. Unfortunately most of your actions are likely to smother that already burning fire, without any surety that your fuel will ignite a new one. The few bits of kindling (such as the skateboard camp) that might be added to their own fire are being viewed with suspicion (by them I mean) as having hidden traps. Sometimes a young man wants to own his private interests without *having* to share them with Mom, especially if he fears her negative evaluation and the likelihood of being compared unfavorably to other kids.

Other people have suggested getting back into your own interests. I am going to suggest something that initially looks like a completely opposite course.

I want to suggest that you *temporarily* put aside all of your personal reading, unit study plans, various interests (which will all be there when you get done with this assignment), and your scheduled diversions that you are hoping to impose on your kids, and channel your energy and love of learning and reading and researching into “Kathy’s Unit Study on Unschooling”.

Read, carefully as if there were going to be a comprehension test (g), ALL of Sandra’s and others’ writings at www.sandradodd.com/unschooling Maybe start especially with “Fallacies” and “Moving a Puddle”, and then “Deschooling” and “Book worship”.

Follow ALL the links to other places and Unschoolers’ blogs that are there.

Rent the movies Sandra suggests.

Go to www.unschooling.info/forum and seek out the writings there of Joyce Fetterol, Deb Lewis, Sandra herself, the Pams (all of them!), Kelly and Kelli, Danielle Conger, Lyle, Kathryn Baptista….I know I’m forgetting some of the great writers many of whom have been through, or are going through, the puberty of sons.

Read more John Holt books. Make sure that you purchase or borrow the latest edition of his books, because he went back and made annotations that reflect his changing opinions even to the point of saying, “I was wrong to suggest that and I wish I hadn’t” in places.

Read about Howard Gardner’s “Multiple Intelligences”.

Maintain your health by getting some fresh air every day.

While you are doing this just stop interfering with your sons’ enjoyment of the several interests they are desperately trying to demonstrate to you.
Just stop trying to direct their activities in any way. Drive them places if they ask you to. If the TV is too loud, ask them to turn it down a bit, go sit on the porch with your book, or put on the earphones to your personal cd player while you read.

Don’t hang out with school-at-homers or anyone invested in the school system. Don’t ask people who are hostile to Unschooling about their opinions on it. Don’t necessarily share this nascent journey with people who may be negative about it just yet. Don’t have discussions with people who have any permutation of the attitude that “kids today are going bad.” Don’t watch Dr. Phil when he is talking about parenting. Don’t worry about any assessments or legalities required by your State just now.

Make sure there is a plate of sandwiches or cut fruit and cheese or some crackers and dip or some ice cream sandwiches or whatever, easily accessible, or at their elbow as they sit at the computer or by the tv. The idea is both to preempt the grouchiness of hunger, and allow you to have
some uninterrupted moments.

Strewing does not work while the strewer is attached to a desired outcome or has a hidden agenda. Expectations are the surest path to disappointment. The idea I am suggesting to you is to not attempt any more strewing, until you have reached the internal serenity of detachment.

This can be an internally painful process. Be ready for a lot of initial denial and desire to reject the ideas, or have a “that won’t work for ME”
reaction. If you have to scream, go scream into a pillow where they can’t hear you. This too will pass, I promise. None of the ways of being that are
talked about here and on Sandra’s site are untruths - rather they are the result of absolute convictions, borne of experience, that this way of life
works to create deep connection between parents and children.

Have you read “Pride and Prejudice”? Remember Elizabeth’s first reaction on reading Darcy’s letter, of denial and angry rejection? Then remember how her acceptance of one point led her slowly into acceptance of all the rest of his reasoning and story? Remember how her final reaction had to be one of rueful self-knowledge and gentle self-forgiveness?

One final thought: You seem to have a desire to see your struggle as unique, and that your children are different or “worse” than the few thousand
children that make up the families of Unschoolers on this and the sister lists. They are not. Your issues are not unusual. You are expressing the
same doubts, same issues, same fears, same old fallacies, even using the same words, which we have heard repeatedly, almost universally, from people newly approaching Unschooling from some other educationally based lifestyle.

If they can get to Unschooling and living a life of comparative ease and freedom and joy with their children by becoming willing, so can you. You
really can.

***

I asked my son what he thought a person could get from watching cartoons.
He said he’s learned a lot from watching Loony Toons and especially
Daffy Duck. “What?” I asked. “I learned that you really can solve all
your problems with dynamite!” <G>

Don’t panic. He was being funny.

But really, maybe hours of Scooby Doo is glorious fun. Fun is serious.
Fun is important, especially for kids. Don’t underrate fun. People who
are not happy as children seldom find easy or lasting happiness as
adults.

But there are all kinds of things a person could get from watching Scooby
Doo.
They are kind to Scooby, they love him and wouldn’t leave him behind,
he’s their friend and they would do whatever they could to save him if he
was in danger. It might inspire someone to think about kindness to
animals.

Freddy, Velma, Daphne, Shaggy and Scoob genuinely care about each other,
trust each other. Might inspire thoughts about friendship and trust.

They work together, plan and organize. It might inspire thoughts about
the usefulness of cooperation.

They handle tough situations with humor. That might inspire someone to
think about the value of a happy and positive attitude.

They help people who need help.
The people who need help ask for it.
These are good things.

Viewers might learn about comedic timing, setting a mood with music,
foreshadowing, plot development, character development, dialog, story
line, fashion, animation.

***Does the television and game playing become a habit that is all the
child then wants to do.***

If television and games are only two choices in a whole house and
neighborhood and town and county and state full of choices then they are
no more likely to become habit than anything else. It’s up to you to
offer your kids a big life. If you don’t do it, it would be very smart
of them, really brilliant of them to find something stimulating and
challenging like TV and games. But if kids are watching because they’re
bored then the parents need to think of ways to make life more
interesting. TV should be a choice among many choices, not the only
choice.

If a child has a lot of choices and chooses video games or TV then he’s
getting something valuable from them. People have all kinds of interests
during their lives. An intense interest in TV or video games now
probably won’t last a lifetime but for some people it might and those
people could someday be sound technicians or cameramen. They might be
producing TV shows, acting, writing musical scores, writing screenplays,
directing, doing stunt work - they might be graphic artists, or writing
codes or software, etc.

Lots of people enjoy TV all their lives. It’s no different than enjoying
reading or enjoying playing cards.

Some people focus on one thing really intently for awhile, weeks or
months or years and then when they’ve had their fill, move on to other
things. Someone who’s discovered a few great shows on TV might really
focus on them until they’ve explored every aspect of the characters and
themes, etc. It’s the same when a really little child likes mom to read
a favorite book over and over again. It doesn’t mean it’s a habit, in
the negative way you’re using “habit” above. It means some people focus
more fully and deeply and get everything they can from that interest
before moving on.

***They may pick up snippets of information from cartoons, but compared
to the hours watching, it seems little knowledge return really.***

Many unschoolers and most radical unschoolers don’t consider unschooling
to be a method of education. There is no way to completely measure
another persons knowledge. People know so much more than they show the
outside world at any given moment. People are learning all the time. We
may not be able to see the learning or name it but it’s happening.
Unschooling will be easier for you if you can come to trust this process.
Humans learn.

This is a strange statement really. If your kids spent hours in the pool
during the hot summer would you be wondering what they were getting from
it? Would you be measuring the return. Would you need to document, even
in your own mind what they might have learned in/from the water?

***what skills are they learning that they can use in the world outside
their home?***

Your children aren’t outside your home though. They’re young and at home
with you. What is it that you think they need to know right now, today,
this minute, that they don’t know? I’ll bet they know what they need
for today. You’re speaking mainly about your thirteen year old, I’m
guessing. It will be five years before she can legally leave your house.
She’s not standing still. It sounds like you want the comfort of
knowing she’s ready to be on her own right now, but she doesn’t need to
be.

***What skills will they get that can help them function as adults?***

What skills do you have that help you function as an adult that you
believe your child is missing? If you list them I can tell you ways she
might come to possess those skills. (or not)

***How can this compare to schooled peers who are learning a variety of
different things?***

Kids who go to school don’t all come out the other end ready for life in
the world. A guy my husband used to work with graduated without knowing
how to read. Kids in school are there six or more hours a day one
hundred eighty days a year and still have to “review” when the new school
year begins everything they “learned” the previous year. Then there’s
remedial classes and homework and summer school and the big push to get
kids to read teacher selected stuff over summer vacations. If ever there
was a disparity between time spent and knowledge gained it’s in school.

And the “variety” they’re (supposedly) learning in school is selected by
a bunch of fat, rich white guys who believe they know, without a doubt
what every child in the country should know and when they should know it.
It’s not reasonable in any way.

***I know we live in a technological society, but shouldn’t a childs
world have more in it than just cartoons and computer games? Is this
where strewing comes in?***

I’ll just guess here that your daughter talks to people, talks on the
phone, talks to friends and relatives. I’ll guess she reads a little,
goes to the store with you, knows the difference between dirty clothes
and clean ones. She probably sees that grass is green and the sky is
blue and she probably knows birds sing and bees buzz.

I think you’re in some kind of panic. I think you’re not thinking of
what your kid knows and does in any balanced way because you’re so
focused on the thing she’s doing that you don’t really approve of.

What really helps some people is to make a list of the things their kid
can do and the things they’re interested in and the things they love.
Focus on those positive things instead of the negative thing in your head
that’s telling you your child is missing the mark.

And I’d ask, if you think she should be doing more, what are you doing to
make other choices available to her that would be as fun or interesting
as the TV.

Does she have your support in getting to the library or the park or the
pool or the mall? Do you go out to lunch to new places, have
interesting people over for dinner, visit museums, and parks and art
galleries and funky shops and ice cream parlors? Does she have games to
play and books and magazines to read? Can she chat with friends on-line
or go to camp if she wants?

Yes, this is where strewing comes in. Strewing should be “in” all along
because people of all ages need to have interesting lives.

Unschooling is trusting the child to learn what he needs to learn when he needs to learn it. Unschooling is also sometimes called “natural learning” and “child-led learning” . But mostly unschooling is NOT school-at home: we do not try to replicate school in our houses. It’s real living in the real world—for and with a purpose. You cannot live and not learn—we’re surrounded by real opportunities every day to learn. And it’s REAL learning,
not simulated as in school. Living is learning is unschooling is living is learning is unschooling…..

There are several good books on the inanity and insanity of schools and on the marvels of unschooling.

The unschooling “patron saint” is John Holt. He was a school reformer in the 70’s who came to realize that schools are NOT reformable. His most
popular books are How Children Fail, How Children Learn, Teach Your Own, and Learning All the Time.

John Taylor Gatto was a NY city and NY state teacher of the year. He finally quit and started on the speaking circuit. He seems completely behind
unschooling. His two big books are Dumbing Us Down and The Underground History of American Education.

Frank Smith has a great little book called The Book of Learning and Forgetting that shows how little one learns in and remembers from school. He
pushes REAL learning—for a purpose.

Alfie Kohn’s Punished by Rewards shows the total inanity of EXtrinsic motivation (gold stars, grades, etc.) and the attributes of INtrinsic motivation (learning because it’s FUN!).

Grace Llewellyn’s The Teenage Liberation Handbook (How to Quit School and Get a REAL Education) is the “bible” for unschoolers. It’s a great read
for teens, but parents should read it too. Be SURE not to skip the “cute little story” at the beginning. Grace also hosts the “Not Back To School Camp”
in the early fall for teen unschoolers—a place to meet other unschoolers and share passions and interests.

Mary Griffith has two books, The Homeschooling Handbook and The Unschooling Handbook. The Homeschooling Handbook has many great ideas for documenting what’s being learned; and, since that is a requirement in several states, it’s very helpful. But The Unschooling Handbook is THE handbook for new unschoolers. In it she gives real life examples and explanations. VERY understandable. Convinced my husband that what I was suggesting made sense! <g>

David Albert has two: And the Skylark Sings with Me and Homeschooling and the Voyage of Self-Discovery. Both are witty—and easy reads.

Valerie Fitzenreiter has a brand new book that I highly recommend: The Unprocessed Child: Living Without School. It’s about unschooling her daughter, Laurie. I give it as gifts a LOT!

Magazines:

“Life Learning Magazine”
“Live Free Learn Free”
“Growing Without Schooling”, originally put out by John Holt. No longer in production, but back issues available from “old” unschoolers and from
FUNbooks.

Websites:

_www.unschooling.info_ (http://www.unschooling.info/) is THE website for unschooling. There are other lists that “say” they unschool; these are
the radicals who KNOW what they are talking about. There are essays and FAQs which you should definitely read first. Afterwards go to the message boards and read, read, READ! If you have questions after reading for a few weeks, then post—but most things have been explained before, so if you read, you’ll run across the answers to most of your questions.

Some posters to pay attention to are Sandra Dodd, Joyce Fetteroll, Pam Sorooshian, Anne Ohman, Ren Allen, Deb Lewis, Rue Kream, Robyn Coburn,
Danielle Conger, and Mary Gold. There are other wonderful posters, butthese are all radical unschoolers who all have great ways of expressing themselves and getting to the nitty gritty of unschooling. They will all be at the conference in October.

Sandra Dodd is a radical unschooler of three children, 18, 15, & 13. She has her own website that is chocked FULL of essays and stories about
unschooling. It’s a great place to start. _www.SandraDodd.com/unschooling_ (http://www.sandradodd.com/unschooling) .

Ned Vare & Luz Shosie have an already-graduated-from-college-always-unschooled son. Their website is full of short essays on unschooling. They have a newsletter as well and a regular get-together in CT._http://borntoexplore.org/unschool/_ (http://borntoexplore.org/unschool/)

Billy and Nancy Greer own FUN-books—a mail-order catalogue for unschoolish books and games. _www.FUN-Books.com_ (http://www.fun-books.com/)

E-lists/Yahoogroups:

_UnschoolingDiscussion@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:UnschoolingDiscussion@yahoogroups.com) is a great e-list for those serious about discussing unschooling. I recommend reading a while to “get the feel” of some posters’ styles before posting.

There is also _UnschoolingBasics@yahoogroups.com mailto:UnschoolingBasics@yahoogroups.com) . For beginners. Owned by Ren Allen and Kelly Lovejoy, this list caters those who are just starting out. We try to be gentle! <g>

For those looking to unschool from the very beginning, try AlwaysUnschooled@yahoogroups.com . They have a monthly book discussion that might appeal to many! This site is run by Danielle Conger and Robyn Coburn, and they chat with the parents of children from birth to eight years old—who aren’t “technically” unschooling because the children are not yet of “school age.”

Anne Ohman started ShinewithUnschooling@yahoogroups.com for those with specific questions about children who are considered “non-typical”: “Highly Sensitive”, “Out of Sync”, “Asperger’s”, “Explosive”. They discuss how unschooling frees their spirits and allows them to truly *Shine*.

Sandra Dodd’s AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups.com is a list for those that already “get it.” It’s a place to discuss deeper levels of unschooling—the real radicals! <g>